Cecilia XiaFormer Secretary of聽Education sat down with聽Preston Silverman, our CEO, and Aneesh Raman, our VP of Growth, at the annual NACAC conference on September 23rd, 2016. Here’s the transcript of our talk, which ranged from college affordability to access to government funding.
Aneesh Raman, VP of Growth, 桃子视频: Good afternoon. My name is Aneesh Raman and I am the VP of Growth at 桃子视频, and the reason I am kicking this off is because I handle all of our student outreach. So I wanted to make sure we started off this lunch by saying to all of our college partners who are here today 鈥渢hank you鈥� on behalf of all of our students.
I joined 桃子视频 from the White House, where alongside getting to see up close what a powerful advocate for students Arne Duncan is; alongside hearing incessantly how good a basketball player Arne Duncan is; I got to write speeches for President Obama. I wrote about how we can grow our economy by getting more kids into and through college so that we can get more families into the middle class. I wrote about how that was the way we could get families into the middle class. That鈥檚 why, when we think about what we鈥檙e building at 桃子视频 with all of you, we think about it as a movement. And to all of you respective college partners out there, it鈥檚 a movement that we hope you鈥檒l join, because every day we鈥檙e reminded that we actually are changing lives.
I get the fun job at 桃子视频. I get to talk to our students who tell us so often how your programs on 桃子视频 help them see that college isn鈥檛 just attainable, but can be affordable. It鈥檚 a powerful thing when you think about the power of education to transform a life. And so on behalf of them, on behalf of the 200,000 or so students who, with your support, we鈥檝e served this year, on behalf of the 1 million or so students that, with your support, we plan to serve this coming year, and especially on behalf of the 40% who will be the first in their family to go to college, and who will go to college more prepared, more likely to complete college, and to go on to a career because of the programs you have on 桃子视频, thank you. Thank you for being leaders in your field. Thank you for expanding access to education. And thank you for helping us expand opportunity in America.
So, enough with the thank-yous. With that, I鈥檒l bring Preston up, and our special guest.
Preston Silverman, CEO and Co-Founder, 桃子视频: Hello everyone, thank you again for being here. We all know Arne Duncan as our former Secretary of Education, and as a child of two educators, Arne has dedicated his entire career to improving America鈥檚 education system so that every child can have a chance to realize their college and career ambitions. A particular focus of Arne鈥檚 throughout his career has been serving underserved students, and that鈥檚 one of the topics we鈥檙e most excited to speak with him about today. Thank you for coming and let鈥檚 all give him warm welcome.
In terms of the format, it鈥檚 going to be all Q and A for about 30 minutes. We have about half the time set up for structured questions that were prepared in advance, and the other half will open up to everyone in the room. There should be note cards on each table鈥娾�斺�奿f you have questions, you can write on those. Someone will be around to collect them and bring them up.
Arne, now that you鈥檝e had some time away from the Administration and are back in Chicago, we were wondering what have been some of your reflections on your time there and some of your major takeaways?
Arne Duncan, former Secretary of Education: Obviously I鈥檓 looking forward to having a brief conversation here, and then to open up to all of your questions. It was a life-transforming opportunity, I still pinch myself that I had the chance. Let me quickly try to walk through successes, you know, a huge increase in funding for early childhood education, which I think is the best investment we can make. K-1, seeing high school graduation rates go to all time highs.
On the higher ed side, which is mostly this audience, a big focus on community colleges. Putting an additional 40 billion dollars behind Pell grants without going to taxpayers for a nickel鈥娾�斺�妕hat was pretty controversial in Washington, but we really just cut out the middleman there. And with high school graduation rates up and dropout rates down, we saw more than 1.1 million different students of color go on to college. So that鈥檚 the plus side.
The failures, or the places we didn鈥檛 do as much as I would鈥檝e liked鈥娾�斺�妛e needed billions of dollars on the early childhood side to go to scale.
On the higher ed side, I desperately hoped and thought that some kind of immigration reform would pass, which means we鈥檇 be able to give college scholarships to dreamers. The fact that we were unable to do any of that is heartbreaking. And, not the point of the conversation today but another huge, massive failure was not doing anything around gun violence. And back home in Chicago that鈥檚 a major focus right now. As a country, just the policy choices we make allow a lot of kids to be killed, that doesn鈥檛 happen in other countries. So, lot of things I鈥檓 proud of, lots of work we didn鈥檛 get done.
But in the presidential debates on both sides there is very little focus on outcomes in education. No one鈥檚 talking about getting high school graduation rates to all time highs. No one鈥檚 talking about making sure high school graduates don鈥檛 need remedial class when they go to college. We should try to lead the world in college completion rates, which you guys are all focused on today. We鈥檙e twelfth鈥娾�斺�妝ou shouldn鈥檛 be proud of that. Would love to take out politics, take out R and D, and left and right. I think if we could have nation building goals, if we could have vigorous debate about best strategies to achieve those goals and a focus on outcomes educationally that I think we need.
Preston Silverman: What do you think are some of the biggest challenges around financial aid today for colleges and universities?
Arne Duncan: You guys know this better than me鈥娾�斺�奻inancial aid isn鈥檛 cheap. College is a lot of hard work. But, it sort of started where my life鈥檚 work is in education. Obviously I care a lot about education, but really for me it鈥檚 always been a means to ending poverty. That for me was the driver. Growing up working for my mother at an inner-city tutoring program, that was the only way to give students a chance in life. The fact of the matter today is that if you come from the bottom 5th in terms of income quintiles鈥娾�斺�妝ou guys probably know these stats better than I鈥娾�斺�妝ou have a 9% chance of graduating college. So less than 1/10, and so I worry a lot about the lack of upward mobility. I worry a lot about income inequality. Because so many people are left out. And the only way I know how to fix that is to help a lot more young people at scale鈥娾�斺�妌ot just to graduate from high school, but to graduate from all of your institutions. And if they do that, they鈥檙e going to have pretty good lives. But if they don鈥檛, they鈥檙e sort of on the margins. So the financial aid part is hard, nothing easy about it, but if we don鈥檛 radically increase those numbers鈥娾�斺�奍 mean鈥娾�斺�妛e could double them tomorrow and we鈥檇 be at less than 1 in 5, and so our rate of change is way too slow. We need to become much more impatient, and find ways to accelerate that. And again that鈥檚 why I鈥檓 happy to be here, I鈥檓 so supportive of your work. I think we need some innovation, we need some new ideas about how we help kids who don鈥檛 have family members that鈥檝e been to college, might not have anyone on their block who has been to college. How do we start to open this door of opportunity for them. Things like what you guys are doing, all that you are working on, I think will help us get there faster.
Preston Silverman: You鈥檝e been a part of several policy solutions that are working toward these goals that could have a big impact on college access and affordability, including expanding scholarship opportunities for undocumented students, giving students in high school the ability to use Pell grants for dual enrollment courses, among many others. Which of these do you see as most important and why? And are there any that you think aren鈥檛 getting enough attention or focus?
Arne Duncan: Obviously Congress was pretty dysfunctional, so we weren鈥檛 able to do as much as we would鈥檝e liked together. But we could do a lot with what we call experimental sites. So we did Pell for incarcerated folks, second chance Pell. We did dual enrollment as you talked about. We鈥檙e starting to do Pell for short term competency-based programs. Again, not every kid needs a four-year degree. If they can get real training at least some real jobs, we should be able to put Pell grants behind that. So we did some really cool pilots which was fun. Again it鈥檚 not at scale, but it gets us in the game. What we were never able to do, which again would probably be controversial in this room, is at the federal level, we put out about 170 billion in federal grants and loans. All of that is based upon inputs, it鈥檚 based upon access. None of it is about outcomes. None of it incentivizes universities to take more first-generation college-goers and more Pell recipients. And so, if we could move in that direction, there鈥檚 a bill that two of my friends鈥娾�斺�奡enator Isakson from Georgia and Chris Coons of Delaware鈥娾�斺�奾ave introduced in a bipartisan way, just to have a few carrots imposed. They鈥檙e showing the courage, and really trying to increase access and affordability. And I think long term our incentives鈥娾�斺�妛e at federal level are part of problem, we don鈥檛 incentivize good behavior鈥娾�斺�奱nd if we were able to put some resources behind those that were really committed themselves, again, I think that would celebrate the pace of change.
Preston Silverman: Are there any innovations outside the policy arena that you are particularly excited about or changes that you see happening in higher education?
Arne Duncan: So I鈥檒l take it down and talk a little bit about why your work is important, and I鈥檒l go back to higher education. For me, financial aid is important鈥娾�斺�奱ll that is a big piece of the puzzle. At the end of the day, we have a lot of students who think college isn鈥檛 for them, they think it鈥檚 for rich folks. And it鈥檚 just not a part of their world, it鈥檚 not a part of their reality. And so, for me, what you鈥檙e doing in providing scholarships to, not seniors, but to 9th graders and having 8th graders in these conversations.
The money is important, but to me it鈥檚 not about the money, it鈥檚 all about creating hope, a sense of what鈥檚 possible, and whatever we can do to make that dream of going to college real. Yes, in 9th and 10th grade, but for 6th and 7th and 8th graders. Again, the level of social isolation and disconnect鈥娾�斺�奍 can鈥檛 tell you how large that is. Whether it鈥檚 in my home in Chicago, inner city, south and west sides, or whether it鈥檚 in Appalachia, or whether it鈥檚 in Native American reservations. So yes, the money鈥檚 important, but I honestly think it鈥檚 a small piece of the overall strategy. It鈥檚 really about creating hope and the sense that this is a world I can fit into. So whatever you guys can do there is fantastic.
On the higher education side, again not surprised there鈥檚 some real innovators here. More folks need to start measuring themselves not based on exclusion, which is a huge part of US News & World Report rankings, but around inclusion, and the more you can start to evaluate yourself not just based upon inclusion, but around outcomes鈥娾�斺�妌ot just letting people through the door but finishing鈥娾�斺�妕he better. Those are the kinds of innovations that I think are game changers and it鈥檚 a cultural shift, you鈥檙e fighting against lots of other things. But again if we鈥檙e really serious about creating opportunity for those historically who have been locked out educationally and therefore economically, we have to do this in radically different ways. That鈥檚 the kind of work I love and want to find a way to support.
Preston Silverman: Thank you for your support for our program, we really appreciate it. One concern we鈥檝e heard from some prospective partners is that it can be seen as tying extrinsic motivation for something that should be intrinsic for students. How do you think about that? What would you share with people that might share that concern?
Arne Duncan: Well, I don鈥檛 share that concern. I think that鈥檚 a very academic and philosophical concern and I鈥檒l just go back to where I started, which was that this is not about scholarship money, it鈥檚 really not. It鈥檚 about having 9th graders who don鈥檛 have anyone in their families going to college who start to think 鈥淏oy, if I work hard, maybe I鈥檒l be successful. Maybe I鈥檒l have a chance in this world.鈥� I don鈥檛 know if it鈥檚 extrinsic, intrinsic, that鈥檚 a little philosophical for me. I just think there鈥檚 so many kids across the country who don鈥檛 believe.
And if we save all our school money until 12th grade, well that鈥檚 not when kids drop out. They drop out in 9th and 10th grade. They鈥檙e gone. So you鈥檙e preaching to a choir in 12th grade, but I want more kids in the choir. I want more kids coming in your direction. So the more you can pull this down and make it real and tangible, it鈥檚 hugely important.
The other thing is obviously鈥娾�斺�奿t鈥檚 a generational thing. Kids today need鈥娾�斺�奍 don鈥檛 want to say instant gratification鈥娾�斺�奲ut they need to know early on, in real time鈥娾�斺�奱nd this is what got me so excited about what you鈥檙e doing鈥娾�斺�妕hat what they鈥檙e doing matters long term.
If you鈥檙e working hard freshmen and sophomore year but still have no sense of where you can go, it鈥檚 hard to sustain that. There鈥檚 so many pressures for you to leave school and do other things. So knowing in that first year, second year, whether it鈥檚 $300 or $3000 or $6000, I honestly don鈥檛 care, but knowing in real time that you鈥檙e starting to put money in the bank for college, just the psychological impact is so profound.
And so the debate intrinsic vs. extrinsic absolutely misses the reality of what so many our kids are dealing with. If people spent more time with these kids in these communities, the debate wouldn鈥檛 be there. The debate would be how can we do this 10X bigger and quicker than we鈥檙e doing it right now.
Preston Silverman: There鈥檚 been a lot of talk in different circles about how higher education can foster and evaluate character traits, like grit, that correlate with success moving beyond the traditional academic factors. What鈥檚 your current thinking on that?
Arne Duncan: So again, just your most recent innovation, starting to put some scholarship dollars behind people who are helping out in the community or helping out at home, again, I think is brilliant. Because they鈥檙e a set of kids, that鈥檚 their reality. They have to take care of younger siblings, they have to take care of mom, they have to go to work after school, and they don鈥檛 get to do the fun things that I did like play basketball, things that I was lucky enough to do and privileged enough to have those chances.
So the fact that you鈥檙e starting to recognize that in a very concrete way is hugely important. How do universities teach that, build that, how do high schools, middle schools, elementary? It鈥檚 not easy鈥娾�斺�奻or me, all this stuff is less academic, less classroom work鈥娾�斺�妋ore community engagement, service, and involvement. All the work I did early in my career, all the early work I did working with kids in the inner city, we spent lots of time doing tutoring academic work. We spent a huge amount of time trying to help build those traits and characteristics in the kids we were working with because what they were dealing with at home in their community was so horrific, was so tough that without that they weren鈥檛 going to make it. What haunts me to this day, honestly, is that I have no clue whether we were successful or not. We had no measurements, no way of evaluating ourselves. We cared passionately, we tried extraordinarily hard, but I don鈥檛 know if we were successful. So the more we鈥檙e in this game, the more we鈥檙e trying to build these traits and characteristics. And then over time, figuring out are we getting better or not? All of you guys are also employers, I鈥檝e built teams in different places, candidly I hear a lot more about these traits in the workplace than I hear about a math score or a reading score. I would absolutely say that those traits are as important for long term success in life than any academic skills that any universities are also teaching.
Preston Silverman: Once we do get students to campus how can colleges and universities better support low income and first generation students?
Arne Duncan: Yea, so honestly, this one for me isn鈥檛 rocket science. It鈥檚 first just a real commitment to doing so. It鈥檚 a commitment not just to admissions, but to completion. So when you commit, I mean a couple of things鈥娾�斺�奷ata can obviously help to drive this, being much more thoughtful, tracking stuff, jumping on a problem early. Peer relationships and mentoring鈥娾�斺�奾ave a faculty or staff member who鈥檚 got a caseload and who鈥檚 on this every single day. For young people, there鈥檚 young people who are just on the precipice financially鈥娾�斺�奿t鈥檚 one car breakdown away from dropping out, it鈥檚 one babysitter that doesn鈥檛 show up away from dropping out. Having some ability to deal with that in real time, not three months later when it鈥檚 too late. That kind of stuff, it鈥檚 not rocket science, it鈥檚 not a cure for cancer, it鈥檚 just deciding that student-by-student, we鈥檙e going to鈥娾�斺�妛ith resources, with facts, with data, with upper class juniors and seniors鈥娾�斺�妀ust build a culture of support that鈥檚 going to help them not walk out the door as a freshmen, but walk across the stage as a senior.
There鈥檚 lots of good examples鈥娾�斺�奍 want to point them out. Is Vassar here? I don鈥檛 know if Vassar鈥檚 in the room. There they are. If I鈥檓 wrong, tell me. They basically doubled the number of Pell recipients students in Vassar. The Pell college completion rate is actually slightly higher than the rest of the college. I can go Vassar, I can go Franklin Marshall, I can go right down the list. There鈥檚 a whole set of you that are making this work. I think people at Vassar are very smart. I don鈥檛 think they鈥檙e any smarter than anyone in the room. I just think they had commitment from the top, from the leadership, that this was hugely, hugely important. They鈥檝e executed against it, they haven鈥檛 done it perfectly, they keep getting better, but there are enough examples out there that when people are serious about this鈥娾�斺�夾rizona State, I mean, there鈥檚 a whole set of folks鈥娾�斺�妕hey aren鈥檛 just talking about this, they鈥檙e walking the walk every single day. So we know it鈥檚 possible.
Preston Silverman: We鈥檙e all very interested to hear what鈥檚 next for you. We know you鈥檙e working on some very important projects in Chicago focused on gun violence.
Arne Duncan: I鈥檒l take a second here, because it鈥檚 not the point here. But basically鈥娾�斺�妉ittle bit of a shift, not a total shift鈥娾�斺�奲ut I鈥檓 basically working with those in Chicago who all of us have collectively failed, quite frankly. Who were not educated well, did not have community support, did not have family support. Unfortunately, their trajectory has basically led them to become shooters in Chicago. Me coming home has been fantastic but also extremely painful. The level of violence, the level of shootings, it鈥檚 just sort of stunning鈥娾�斺�妋ore in Chicago than New York and LA combined. This was not my life ambitions but I just couldn鈥檛 come home and not try and work on this. It just didn鈥檛 feel right.
So what we鈥檙e trying to do. We鈥檙e starting with a set of guys, many of them who have done some pretty horrific things and we鈥檙e working to bring them out of a illegal economy and give them social support, wraparound services, and the trauma care, as well as real jobs and real job skills to move them from the illegal economy to the legal economy. And if we do that, I think that鈥檚 the only long term way to reduce the level of violence. I don鈥檛 think we can arrest our way out of it and I don鈥檛 think we can police our way out of it. I think a lot of that鈥檚 actually making it worse. And so not to put any pressure on you guys, but I鈥檓 going to say 100% of the guys I鈥檓 working with did not go to college. There鈥檚 no one I鈥檓 working with who had the benefit or privilege of having a college opportunity. And so when our systems fail, the price we鈥檙e paying now, not just in Chicago, though it鈥檚 particularly acute there鈥娾�斺�妕he price pay for education failure around the country now is pretty extraordinary.
Preston Silverman: How are you getting started鈥娾�斺�奿t鈥檚 an incredibly huge and systematic problem across the country鈥娾�斺�奾ow do you even begin to tackle a problem like that?
Arne Duncan: We鈥檝e funded 4,700 summer jobs for kids in south and southwest side of Chicago. This summer, we gave kids a chance to work in a legal economy. We鈥檙e now working with a set of our guys who have been shooters in the far south side in Pullman, and doing a bunch of work with them, and now starting to have them do work in the community.
We鈥檙e still in our infancy, we鈥檙e still crawling before we can walk. There are 15 neighborhoods that produce 75% of the violence. That鈥檚 pretty concentrated. And so pretty quickly we鈥檙e going to try to move from one pilot to pilots in multiple neighborhoods. It鈥檚 early and it鈥檚 tenuous work every single day, and there鈥檚 ups and downs, but I鈥檒l just say, these are some extraordinary young men. They鈥檙e smart, many of them are entrepreneurs, they just didn鈥檛 have the kinds of opportunities that so many of us in this room were blessed to have. Working with guys in the county jail鈥娾�斺�奍鈥檓 going there pretty frequently鈥娾�斺�奱nd they鈥檙e giving us their guys on the outside, to feed into our program, to move their fellow gang members out of that life and into something else. It鈥檚 a long term play but there鈥檚 a huge interest. Lots of people are tired of being out there鈥娾�斺�奿t鈥檚 extraordinarily scary and dangerous. And they鈥檙e looking to do something different, but we just have to provide that chance and they have to be able to make a living. They have to be able to eat, be able to feed their kids. Without the job part of this, I think we can鈥檛 get there.
Preston Silverman: Before we turn it over to everyone for questions, are there any major takeaways that you think people should be focused on in this next year?
Arne Duncan: No, again, I just want to let you know personally, it means a lot to me that you鈥檙e focused on higher education, and I鈥檓 not that, that old, getting a little older. Back when I grew up in south side in Chicago, if my friends dropped out of high school or didn鈥檛 go to college, it wasn鈥檛 great, but it wasn鈥檛 the end of the world. They could go get job in the stockyard, steel mills, buy a home, support a family, be part of the middle class. Those jobs in Chicago and across the nation are obviously gone.
To end, like I mentioned before, when we fail to educate, just the divide between the haves and the have-nots now is staggering. Whatever you can do to increase opportunity, whatever you can do to have your universities not just work with college students, but work with your K-12 systems, and build pipelines, and reach down, do whatever you can with a particular focus on Pell recipients, first-generation college-goers. This is a tough time for our country. Without being political, so much anger you see on the left and the right are people that feel they鈥檙e being left behind. Guess what? They鈥檙e right. They鈥檙e accurate in that assessment. And when we don鈥檛 give people chances to get a great education, the cost is extraordinary high now. So whatever you can do to increase access, increase success. When young people graduate from your institutions, they鈥檙e going to have pretty good lives. I don鈥檛 worry about them much at all. Debt might be a little high, we could talk about the cost of college, but they鈥檙e going to do just fine. It鈥檚 those that don鈥檛 have the opportunity to learn who are basically condemned to the marges, and there鈥檚 a pretty steep price we鈥檙e paying right now as a country for that academic failure.
Preston Silverman: Let鈥檚 go to questions from all of you. There is always debate to if raising Pell grants and other federal aid in turn raises cost of attendance. Can you share your thoughts on this?
Arne Duncan: Yes, it鈥檚 a false debate, and the answer is that鈥檚 not true. We did all of the historical analysis, and college tuition has gone up whether you raise Pell or you don鈥檛 raise Pell, whether you raise financial aid or not. So yes, we have to challenge institutions to contain costs and I don鈥檛 want to give you guys a pass on this at all, but that increased aid has not led directly to increases in tuition. It鈥檚 just factually not accurate.
Preston Silverman: Could you share what you believe are top three priorities right now for the Department of Education?
Arne Duncan: Lots of priorities. Always start with early childhood education, again trying to increase a lot of access there. On the K-12 side, continuing to raise graduation rates, reduce dropout rates, ensure that high school graduates are college ready. Talk about Common Core and all that, but the goal there was simply trying to make sure young people weren鈥檛 having to take remedial classes in college and pay college tuition for high school classes, which cost the nation a couple of billion dollars a year. On the higher ed side, again we鈥檙e twelfth in the world in terms of college completion rates, we were first in the world a generation ago, and it鈥檚 not that we dropped鈥娾�斺�妛e鈥檝e stagnated, we鈥檝e flatlined. A dozen other countries are out innovating and out investing and in a knowledge-based economy, jobs are going to go to where the knowledge workers are. I desperately want that to be United States, but if you think Singapore and India and China are just, sort of, sitting back and watching us, they鈥檙e not. They鈥檙e passing us. So those would be three goals at each level鈥娾�斺�奺nd goals at each level鈥娾�斺�妕hat would just be hugely important. And again, for me, it鈥檚 just so important that these鈥娾�斺�奍 don鈥檛 think鈥娾�斺�奵an be or should be Republican goals or Democratic goals. These are goals for our nation.
Preston Silverman: A little more practical鈥娾�斺�奵an you share any advice about working with faculty to understand why articulations are needed?
Arne Duncan: Articulations with K-12? Or with groups like 桃子视频?
Preston Silverman: Educators, colleges鈥�
Arne Duncan: Again, I think people in this room understand that education is complicated for a whole host of reasons but at the top of that is this silo effect. And when higher education doesn鈥檛 talk to high schools, when high schools don鈥檛 talk to middle schools and elementary schools, when they don鈥檛 talk to early childhood, everybody points fingers and lays blame about why kids aren鈥檛 prepared and why things aren鈥檛 working. At the end of the day, they鈥檙e our kids and we鈥檙e losing them.
And you guys are producing the nation鈥檚 teachers. I鈥檓 sure some of you are doing an amazing job, some of you in this room aren鈥檛 doing an amazing job. So whatever we can do to build that articulation.
I talk sort of downstream, the other huge part of articulation is upstream with our employers. Are you guys really teaching skills employers are looking for? Some places are doing an amazing jobs, other places aren鈥檛 having those conversations. Again, this is about more than education, it鈥檚 about economic opportunity, social mobility, and giving kids a chance to be successful, it鈥檚 about inclusion, not exclusion. Only way you get there are hard, difficult conversations and partnerships that take time and aren鈥檛 always efficient, but the long term benefits are huge. So whatever you can do to build those relationships downstream, whatever you can do to build them with employers, whatever you can do to build them with nonprofits, others coming in, like 桃子视频, trying to create opportunity, you can鈥檛 do enough of that. It鈥檚 just got to be part of your DNA.
Preston Silverman: Claudia Sanchez mentioned this morning on NPR when people go into voting booth to pull the lever, they don鈥檛 necessarily pull it for education. How can we change that?
Arne Duncan: That鈥檚 the billion dollar鈥娾�斺�妕rillion dollar鈥娾�斺�妐uestion. I have yet to meet a politician who says they鈥檙e anti-education, who doesn鈥檛 love to visit schools. We don鈥檛 hold them accountable for education results. And that鈥檚 at the local level with mayors, state level with governors, congressmen, senators, and presidents. We don鈥檛 hold them accountable.
We鈥檙e getting better far too slowly as a nation, we have to accelerate the pace of change. Again, to the question, I don鈥檛 blame the leaders, I blame us as voters. If you watch the presidential debates, education doesn鈥檛 come up. When it does come up, candidly on both sides it鈥檚 a little bit about cost of college, which is your world, but that鈥檚 a strategy, that鈥檚 not a goal.
For me, the goal should be to lead the world in college completion rates. No one鈥檚 talking about that. The goal should be to get to 100% graduation rate as fast as we can. The goal should be to lead the world in early childhood access, and equality. These things don鈥檛 come up. So I guess I鈥檓 stating a problem鈥娾�斺�妘ntil we as voters across the political spectrum, go to the voting booth and vote on this, politicians get a pass, and will continue to be sort of mired in mediocrity.
The only answer I know鈥娾�斺�妎r two answers鈥娾�斺�奱re we have to create demand among parents. Parents are fighting for this at every single level, that鈥檚 sort of the grassroots strategy. I think there鈥檚 has been a massive of lack of investment from the philanthropic sector. In terms of demand, we鈥檝e seen lots of work funding great teachers and great principals, and that鈥檚 hugely important, but not enough grassroots demand. The second is really challenging every CEO in the nation to go from altruism to self interest. CEOs should be challenging us on education much harder than they are, saying we鈥檙e not producing what they want, which we clearly aren鈥檛 and they know that, but they aren鈥檛 putting enough pressure on political candidates. So we need an absolute grassroots bottom up strategy, plus absolute top down, and until we vote on this issue, we鈥檒l struggle.
One quick anecdote, just a counterpoint.I spend a lot of my time on looking at international comparisons and benchmarks, comparing our competitiveness. In virtually every measure, South Korea is trouncing us. I don鈥檛 want to do everything Korea鈥檚 doing,they can be pretty extreme, but this is pretty interesting stuff. Whenever President Obama met with other nation鈥檚 leaders, he always asked about education. And we talked to the President of South Korea and asked, 鈥淲hat鈥檚 your biggest challenge?鈥� 鈥淩ight now,鈥� the president of South Korea said, 鈥渕y biggest challenge is that my parents are too demanding. Even my poorest parents, my poorest parents, demand world class education.鈥� And I just so desperately wish that people were knocking down my door, and the President鈥檚 door, and their mayors鈥� and governors鈥� doors, saying 鈥淒amnit, you guys aren鈥檛 working fast enough!鈥� I鈥檝e never, ever, ever gotten that pressure. All my pressure was, 鈥淵ou鈥檙e going too fast, slow down, slow down, slow down.鈥� I had no one pushing me to go faster. So we just need to think about, again, in a globally competitive economy, how we start to have the will, and do some things very differently and break some china, to get better much faster than we are today.
Preston Silverman: What do you think of Secretary Clinton鈥檚 proposal for free college and how would you compare it to dramatic expansion of Pell grants?
Arne Duncan: Yes, so I would say on debt鈥娾�斺�妝ou all are better experts than I am鈥娾�斺�奷ebt鈥檚 a real challenge. College costs more than it should. But honestly, the vast majority of people who graduate from college pay back their debt. I would say the worst debt is debt without a degree. Debt-free? That鈥檚 great. Let鈥檚 go to college for free? That鈥檚 fantastic. But if our college completion rates are still 40鈥�42%, if you go to college for free and don鈥檛 get that degree, you鈥檙e still not going to get a good job. You might be in less debt. So for me the whole conversation should be how do we go from forty-something percent college completion to sixty, sixty-five, seventy, which is where the nations who are leading the world in college completion rates are at. That gives younger voters鈥娾�斺�奿t鈥檚 less motivating maybe, it鈥檚 less of a political issue鈥娾�斺�奲ut my whole focus would be is how do we dramatically increase graduation completion rates for the nation and, very specifically, how do you dramatically, dramatically increase college completion rates for that bottom quintile, or bottom two quintiles in terms of economic income?
Preston Silverman: We鈥檙e coming up on time here, so we鈥檒l leave you with a lighter one. We鈥檝e heard lots of talk about who is better on the basketball court, you or the President, we want to know who it is.
Arne Duncan: I plead the fifth, one more real question.
Preston Silverman: Alright, what do you think states roles are in the funding question?
Arne Duncan: This is a better one to end on. I鈥檒l both encourage you and challenge you a little bit. So I say all the time that budgets are numbers on paper, and budgets reflect our values. You can tell me what you care about, but show me your budget and I鈥檒l know what you actually care about. I鈥檇 love to see the analysis over the past 20 years of how many states have increased what they spend on incarceration versus higher education. Incarceration has gone up. We as a society are very happy to lock people up at forty, fifty, sixty, seventy-thousand dollars a year, and somehow find it more difficult when it鈥檚 on the higher education side, or K-12, or early childhood.
Obviously I believe that an ounce of invention is worth pound of cure. So again, that has become the politically safe path to go for Republicans and Democrats, and I don鈥檛 blame them, I blame us. Until we start to vote on funding for education, and less on incarceration, we鈥檙e going to continue seeing these trends that are absolutely devastating. Mass incarceration has been a travesty, particularly in Black and Latino communities鈥娾�斺�奱nyway, that鈥檚 a separate subject. That鈥檚 where, just to encourage you, and also challenge you鈥娾�斺�奍鈥檝e talked to many governors across the political spectrum, and for me it can鈥檛 be more money for higher education.
You鈥檝e got to have a conversation about outcomes, it can鈥檛 be free lunch, it has to be about outcomes.In this political climate, you can鈥檛 go back to taxpayers, you can鈥檛 ask for a nickel, if you鈥檙e not talking about outcomes. I am always, always the greatest advocate for more funding, for education at every level, but if you can鈥檛 talk about early childhood kids actually being ready for kindergarten, then it鈥檚 hard to justify that. If you can鈥檛 talk about high school graduation rates going up, and eradicating dropout factories鈥娾�斺�奿t鈥檚 hard to justify it, and I will tell you the number of governors on either sides of aisle, who say 鈥淎rne, I want to fund but I鈥檝e got to know I鈥檓 getting something for my money.鈥� And trying to talk to the higher education community about outcomes? Sometimes they鈥檇 rather shoot themselves in the head. It鈥檚 so hard to do, and it鈥檚 hard to measure learning, of course it鈥檚 hard to measure a lot of things.
This is where leadership is needed from your sector, from your universities, from you. And say 鈥淲ith X amount of additional funding, here鈥檚 what we鈥檙e going to better in terms of graduation rates, here鈥檚 what we鈥檙e going to do better around access, here鈥檚 what we鈥檙e going to do better around low income students and first-generation college-goers.鈥� And it can鈥檛 be a blank check, or it鈥檚 just not going to happen. And again, to be very clear, I鈥檝e had painful conversations with governors on both sides of the aisles, who back in their home states, were trying to get a little movement around accountability and outcomes, and, to put it on the table, cost containment in higher education. And those conversations were just painful.
For me, it鈥檚 always about grand bargains鈥娾�斺�奼reater investment for greater accountability. And you can鈥檛 ask for greater accountability without more resources. And you can鈥檛 ask for more resources without accountability. Unless you鈥檙e willing to play on both sides of that equation, were not going to get there. So yes, we should advocate for more resources and challenge governors to put more money behind this and not behind locking people up, but at same time, you鈥檝e got to be very, very clear about what you doing鈥娾�斺�妛hat you鈥檙e doing to increase outcomes, results, and student achievements, in the fight for equity in your state.
桃子视频 is a social enterprise that, in partnership with the White House, is focused on expanding access to higher education, especially among low income and first generation students. Rather than waiting until the end of high school to earn scholarships, which is often too late to impact a student鈥檚 college ambitions or choices, 桃子视频 enables students to earn scholarships throughout high school, starting as early as 9th grade, for doing all the things that best prepare them to succeed, whether that鈥檚 getting good grades, volunteering in the community or joining an extracurricular. At 桃子视频, we鈥檙e focused every day on making sure every student has the opportunity to achieve their college ambitions and go as far as their skills and smarts will take them.
Preston Silverman